Right, here's the deal; every Friday, we're going to allow the nice ladies who read Todger Talk the opportunity to not only pick our massive sexperty brains, but also give our male readers the chance to impart their knowledge. Think of us as a 21st century Cathy and Claire, but with penises. The rules are as follows... Ladies: If there's ever been anything about men you've wanted to know but were afraid to ask, or wanted a male viewpoint on a certain relationship niggle you're going through, drop an email to us at todger dot talk at googlemail dot com. Every week, we shall pick one out and answer it to the best of our capabilities.
Gentlemen: We would very much appreciate your input on a weekly basis, so the comments section of each Something For The Ladies post will be yours and yours alone. In other words, all female comments will be deleted. Sorry ladies, but in this case we'd be very grateful if you'd hush those sweet keystrokes and let the chaps have their say. Just for today though, we love hearing from you the rest of the week.
Are we all clear on that? Good. Here's the first question...
Paula Yates’ Wine Lodge writes: "So, Valentine's Day's come and gone, bringing no roses, chocolates or even a pissy cheap Asda card. Instead, it brought a lot of genuine requests as to whether a fantastic girl like me was inundated with the things. I'm in my thirties, successful, great company and attractive in a womanly way. Men fancy a go, thanks to what has been described as me having 'earthy sexualilty'. So why does no bugger ever ask me out? Does being confident and independent still put men off women; do they think we're going to give them orders in bed and laugh at the size of their dicks? Do they think we're so busy having a good time that we don't need them? Are they afraid that we'll laugh at them for daring to ask us out? Would they feel better if they knew that a girl like me likes to be tied up in the bedroom, although she can be a riot in the bar-room? I'd be really keen to find out what you guys on the blog think about this one, as I'm actually a bit nervous to ask my r/l male mates in case they tell me that my theories are actually right, and that I'm doing it ALL wrong."
‘Mr Sex’ says: Right then, so many questions;
a) Does being confident and independent put men off? No. But what it can mean is that these chaps (who I’m assuming you know quite well) are seeing you as someone who is dead happy with the way things are and isn’t interested in Thingy Whatsit with them. Men can be really cack like that sometimes. Maybe a bit of a hint might help them along (and when I say ‘hint’, I don’t mean screaming ‘FUCK ME! FUCK MEEE!’ and then spinning your head 360 degrees and doing yourself with a crucifix, like Linda Blair in The Exorcist – something a bit subtler, obviously)
b) Do we think that ‘successful career’ equates ‘performance-hungry size-queen’? No. But we do tend to fall into the trap of assuming that successful women want to couple up with equally successful men, presumably so they can have, I dunno, power-breakfasts, or power-trips to the local Asda, and power-sex. We basically like women who earn loads of money and have interesting lives, but we tend to assume that they wouldn’t be massively interested in us. Rubbish, I know, but there it is.
c) Yes, we do tend to think you’re so busy having a good time that we’d get in the way. Fish, bicycle, bicycle, fish. It’s all percolated through to us after so many years, and we feel that we need you more than you need us.
d) Would we be interested in knowing you like to be tied up in the bedroom? Hell yeah. But make sure you say that only those whose fingers you'd like on the knot, if you will, because there's nothing worse than having a woman tell you things like that when it's obvious they don't want to do it with you. It's the sexual equivalent of Jim Bowen saying "Here's what you could have won" on Bullseye.
Basically, it sounds like your life is pretty much sorted out, which makes you a very decent catch indeed. The trick is to relay your availability, but in a Quiet Storm-like manner, and see what happens.
Sam says:
Ok this is pretty simple. You have on what I call 'successitis'. Essentially you have such a successful confident exterior that men presume if you want them, you will make the first move. Or they are too intimidated to make the first move themselves, probably unless they are wanker players who just want a shag. Also they probably assume you are such a strong successful feminist you are over all that girly flowersy, cardy stuff. Oh how wrong they are. Many men have yet to embrace the concept that women can be feminists and still like girly stuff. (I struggled with it myself for some time)
Probably lots of really great men find you really hot and attractive, but just don't have the courage to make a move. (Think back to Dave's piece last week!)
Also what most men fail to realise is that powerful women like you do love to lose control, or more importantly have other people take control: hence being tied up in the bedroom.
The solution?
a) Turn up the flirting volume - When you are around men you fancy, double your flirting volume. Check to see if the blokes responds. If not double it again. And again. Because of your successful exterior you practically will have to wear a sign around your neck saying 'yes, I find you hot, make the first move. Now.' What feels like a rock concert of flirting to you, will look like a slight glimmer of hope to us.
Another way of looking at it is to treat us like Donkeys. You need to hold the carrot right in front of our noses so close it's easy for us to bite. As blokes we are quite dopey at picking up signals, unless they are dangled right in front of us, hopefully accompanied by 'here donkey donkey, try the nice carrot', just so we can be really sure. This is especially so if it is an attractive, earthily sexy and successful carrot.
b) Make the first move yourself - at least half the men that I speak to would be massively relieved if women made the first move. If you think he fancies you, then get drunk with him and you start the snogging. That way if it goes wrong you can blame it on the booze and laugh it off. Or if you fancy a date, ask him out, he will probably be massively relieved and pleasantly surprised.
The downside? - welcome to the horrible man's world of constant possible rejection.
Gentlemen of Todger Talk, what is your advice to this lovely lady?
16 comments:
Well, to make the obviousl statement:
What's wrong with asking them out yourself?
Why does a strong, independant, successful woman with an earth sexuality that likes to be tied up in the bedroom ...
erm, excuse me a monent ...
Right, where was I? Oh, yes, likes to be tied up ... Why on earth hasn't it occurred to you to actually ask somebody out yourself?
If it has occurred to you and you haven't done it for one of oh, so many, reasons, then chances are the blokes you're interested in haven't done it for exactly the same reasons ...
(Said reasons can usually be boiled down to 1 - we're pretty sure you'll say no, humiliate us in public, laugh at us in front of your girlfriends, kick us in the nuts etc. etc.)
I think the chaps here nailed it on the head. A lot of men, sad to say, would suffer a confidence gap. Here's you - successful, confident, glamorous, good looking. The kind of woman men would kill for. Then they evaluate themselves.
Unless you are a total cocky bastard who thinks you are god's gift, you'll probably wind up thinking "why would someone like that want to be with someone like me?" OK, I know I would be like that, because I have been that guy.
The arrogant guys don't suffer from this crisis of confidence, but the guys that women would consider "good" do (and this is why good guys come last...). We're not funny/interesting/good looking/successful enough for you, the most we can hope for is to be friends.
Coupled with this, we're also going to assume that you're spoken for, because why wouldn't someone that good a catch be taken already?
Long story short, guys are idiots who lack confidence. Making the first move may help, but I think just being generally open, friendly and if you like the look of a guy a little flirty will probably do it. Encourage us out of our self-imposed shells, because we have feelings too, and the fact that society tells us we aren't supposed to show them means we are risk averse when it comes to laying them on the line.
Of course I could be talking bollocks here and that's just me...
I think that if you want to get a relationship off the ground, at least one party will have to take charge. If they are too shy to ask you out, you really should take charge and ask them out. At the very least, make it clear to them that asking you out will not result in a sharp blow to the testicles.
Sam's right about a couple of things. First, failure to pick up signals. I am told that I am world champion at this particular thing, but it's really, really prevalent, so don't be subtle. Lots of blokes are thick bastards when it comes to spotting what's going on.
Also, ask someone out. I always liked being asked out when I was single. It's not some terribly emasculating thing making the bloke suddenly lose his genitalia. It's nice to actually have equality.
I will say, though, that if you're good looking and succesful and confident, if you'd met me at a party/bar whatever in my single days, I would probably have thought "Someone like that is bound to have a bloke, he's just not out tonight" and not made any moves. I generally assumed that the really great girl can't be single.
Which is, of course, what leaves you with only the playas and wankers making moves.
(There is a counter-thing where girls have expectations way higher than what they should be: something I'd call Bridget-Jones-itis; too much waiting for Mr Absolutely Perfect Good Job Tall Handsome And Yet Actually Nice Personality Too And With Time To Spend On You to show up. It doesn't sound like you're that person, but there are a lot of girls I know who are single in their 30s because they're spectacularly fussy when they really aren't in much of a position to be).
(First up - comment deletey people, I'm a bloke with a girly nickname, not a woman.)
All of the above could well be true, so I'm not going to repeat them. However, here are a couple of alternate theories:
1) Do you ever meet single, available men whom you're interested in? I know a lot of people who constantly complain that they never get laid, when they also only hang out within a very fixed social circle.
How many single, elegible men whom you found attractive and you would actually date have you met in the last two weeks? Seriously, stop and count them. If the number's below 3, you need to socialise more.
2) OK, time to add to my well-established reputation for being a bastard. There's a phrase in here that set off alarm bells for me: "attractive in a womanly way"
Look, I'm sorry, but from a lot of experience with dating sites that sounds like a euphemism for "overweight".
Now, I could be wrong. You could be a Size 6. But if you're actually quite large, I'm afraid that no matter how much rhetoric about big, beautiful women and use of the phrase "rubenesque" there is out there, you are *much* more likely to get dates if you're in shape and slim appropriate to your height, weight, muscle mass and so on.
So. First off. How do you tell, given that everyone's worried about their weight even if a size 2 dress looks big on them? Well, this might seem insane, but you could try amihotornot.com. Get the sexiest couple of pictures of you that you're willing to see on the Internet, whack 'em up there, and see what results you get. They'll be brutally unflattering and you shouldn't take them as gospel, but they're about as objective as you're going to get.
Also, ask your male friends, if you have any whom you think are willing to say something as potentially insulting as "yeah, you could stand to lose a few pounds". Bear in mind that you'll need to make it very, very, very clear that you want their unvarnished opinion.
Finally, you can tell if this is actually the problem pretty simply. How much aerobic exercise (by which I mean seriously panting for breath, for at least 20 minutes) do you do per week? If it's more than three times per week, I'm just being a pig and you can ignore me. If you basically do no exercise at all, then advance to Defcon 1 on the lardometer.
Finally... Have you tried dating sites? Particularly for someone with your interests, you could do worse than give Alt.com a go - there are a lot of assholes on there, but also some non-asshole types, and I know of quite a few long-term relationships that started that way. You may have some problems with your flirting technique that just aren't an issue for meetings via a dating site.
There's not much I can add to the reasons and advice Urbane Spaceman and Sam have given.
Nevertheless I'm commenting here because what you write is so very much a deja-vu to me, just seen from the other side: Your self-description fits perfectly to how I'd describe my girlfriend, up to the point of liking to be tied up in the bedroom, which I would never have guessed before we got together four months ago! Before this, I had been fascinated by her for several years (both of us having other relationships from time to time, of course). I made it my business to make sure we'd stay in contact, on rather long intervals, however. I didn't dare to be more intrusive, because while her behavior towards me was always very affectionate and kind, it also was (seemed) somewhat aloof, and at the same time she has several male friends with whom she is very close but definitely has just platonic relations. That we finally did get together is like a miracle, the details of which are not important here (it did involve some alcohol, and it was me who had to do the first step, although I had always thought to be open like a book for her).
So what advice can my experience give you? Well, maybe among your male friends there is this guy who will never forget your birthday (very different from giving a VD gift, I think), who will consistently come up with new suggestions for things you could do together and will magically manage to find dates on which you both have time, who will try to spend time with you alone and likes to discuss very personal issues with you. Then I'm 95% sure that this guy is hoping to get closer with you, but he doesn't dare to go any further because he thinks he's already sent all the signals, and being more direct would just seem ridiculous for a sophisticated person like you.
A side remark: 'Traditional women' often use some kind of nonverbal signals towards the end of a date (like becoming silent, looking at the guy a bit expectantly) that tell him that it may be ok now to go ahead and kiss her. If this is not part of your repertoire (which is perfectly fine, because I thinks it's a clear relic of the old power inequality between men and women), then you have no choice but to replace it with some other means of encouraging the guy. Or taking the first step yourself, as others suggested before me.
Hope this helps,
good luck!
As an unconfident anonymous man posting for only the second time on this website, I agree with the majority of ‘criticism’ aimed at wine lodge woman and her lack of pro-activity, and even go as far to say as she comes across as pretty abrasive, which would probably make man parts shrivel in fear and a bit of anxiety.
If I am honest on paper (and if her self-penned diatribe on ‘bastard useless men’ was rewritten) I would fancy in terms of attributes etc but I would be so subtle in my intentions and admiration we’d become friends, even if she used the paddle things that land aircraft and a neon flashing sign spelling out a message such is my general denseness to signs and signals (and what exactly is the difference).
I find the fixed friend/social circle very hard to penetrate as a man - childish giggle of the day – and when he does get an opportunity to woo (like to see the odds on that at Willie hill), pretty much has to jump through hoops, and generally brown nose any appointed Muppet within her circle to gain even slight acceptance.
Men – as in proper men who are not out for just a roll about - are pretty much forced by their feelings to perform this humiliating often pointless ritual, knowing deep down you are getting properly scrutinized (slagging) – so really its not worth the hassle or mental torture trying for such women that are firmly ensconced in the centre of the clique bosom who view every man as not good enough (a situation which is even worse and abhorrently apparent in a small town).
I think some of the advice given out is pretty good (could men have the return date on a Monday in order to crack the minds of women?).
Feminism within its core ideology is equality, I personally am all for it, just as I am pleased when I woman asks me out as I believe its her equal right as its her right to pay for some if not all of it. The idea of feminism in modern life cannot be flexible otherwise it loses credibility, nor can it be bastardised by women to suit their needs, but of course as a man I should not have an opinion on this as feminism is for women only (where is the equality in that).
As mentioned lessons in rejection would be no bad thing especially those who place themselves on a plinth or pedestal and finally, as seen in Seinfeld men just will not approach you as they would like some hand, everybody wants hand, meaning no hand? No relationship.
Hello,
I'm really impressed with the quality of thought in these comments, most of which I understand and agree with. If men do decide you're smart, cute and confident it can be a curse - if you're not confident enough to work it. And there lies the rub really. I think that many otherwise confident women step out of their workplace and then suddenly expect men to take the risks and do the work. This of course doesn't make sense to the guys in the bar, cafe whatever. If a man looks at me repeatedly but isn't making a move, I will risk it, often saying 'hi' and then things progress from there. And really this isn't rocket science. Much of it is using female intuition which appears to have gone out the window and been replaced by execrable lists that women have in their heads of what the right man is. I tripped over one on a beach and another in a restaurant when I wasn't looking. It will help this girl and many other women if they dumped their sense of self-entitlement (I have handily written a post on this.http://womanofexperience.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-self-entitlement-swindle.html
Anyway, the way forward is not that hard and requires a mixture of femininity, courage and compromise perhaps.
Ms R.
http://womanofexperience.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-self-entitlement-swindle.html
Whoops: that's the post
First public warning to Ms R...
(should really delete it, but it's a good post. Maybe we should make it men only for the first day from now on)
Whoops, I consider myself spanked. x
Nothing wrong with a woman making the first move. That doesn't mean you have to go sticking your tongue down some poor unsuspecting bloke's throat, or whipping his light saber out of his pants & waving it around!
Men (me at any rate) do respond more to physical signals. So if you kiss when you greet give an extra/longer one, and as you withdraw maybe brush their cheek & keep their gaze (thinking lustful thoughts at this stage wouldn't do any harm!). If you hug linger longer than normal/necessary. If you share a cab/bus/tube fall asleep on their shoulder (even if you're not tired), pretend you can't get comfortable & put his arm around your shoulders. It doesn't have to be so overt that there is no rowing back but it does need to be more than just "friendly".
Also, in a group guys are less likely to go out on a limb. Rejection is one thing, but rejection in front of your mates is properly bad! (The reasons can be found in Bion's theories on group behavior & "groupthink") So engineering one-on-one situations is a most excellent idea.
A friend of mine has an annoying habit of pointing out attractive women who seem interested in me. AFTER we've left wherever we were. Men aren't always on the lookout for women, just as women aren't always on the lookout for men. But in these cases, subtlety just won't do. Don't make a half-hearted attempt and give up because a man is unresponsive. Don't wallow because you've been rejected in your mind. Chances are he didn't notice or realize you were making an attempt because his mind is elsewhere.
Subtlety may work when you're all ready in a relationship and the guy knows to look for it/ can't misinterpret it, but if you want him to know you're interested, be BLUNT. Or a little more FORWARD.
I can't even begin to tell you how sexy I find it when a woman approaches me.
And if you're not having luck in your neck of the woods, get out of your comfort zone. You'll find there are exponentially more men out there the farther you veer from your home.
PYWL - Smile some more, flirt some more and occasionally wander over and say "hello."
Guys like this, trust me.
I'd agree with earlier posters, it's a confidence thing. There's also a healthy mix of missing the signals in there too mind you.
As a mate said - "You know that look a woman gives you when you've got a chance?" "No?" Me neither, which goes a long way to explaining why I'm single."
b)
Undoubtedly.
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